CNN Transcript - Talkback Live: The Obesity Trial
December 30, 1997Talkback Live
The Obesity Trial
Aired December 30, 1997 - 3:00 p.m. ET(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MARLENE CORRIGAN, DEFENDANT: I didn't let this happen. I could not prevent this from happening. I tried. Christina tried. All of Christina's life, we tried to prevent this.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
JEFF HULLINGER, HOST: A mother is charged in the death of her 680-pound daughter. Was it child abuse, or was it fat discrimination? Ask Judy Freespirit, a fat acceptance activist who attended the trial, and get ready to talk back.
Hello, and welcome to TALKBACK LIVE, CNN's interactive talk show. I'm Jeff Hullinger at the CNN Center in Atlanta. Marlene Corrigan says she has lived through the worst, but she still faces as many as six years in prison if convicted for child abuse in the death of her daughter, Christina.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
HULLINGER (voice-over): Thirteen-year-old Christina Corrigan weighed 680 pounds when she died of heart failure last year. Eight months after her death, her mother, Marlene, was charged with felony child abuse. Prosecutors say the young girl was covered with bed sores, her own feces, and surrounded by fast food containers when she died, signs, they say, of parental neglect.
BRYAN HAYNES, PROSECUTOR: Felony charges are based upon the condition of the child's body, not simply the size of the child's body.
HULLINGER (voice-over): Marlene Corrigan's lawyer says there is another explanation for the condition surrounding Christina's death.
MICHAEL CORDOZA, CORRIGAN'S ATTORNEY: She wasn't covered in fast food containers. The urine and the feces, were they present? Yes. The little girl, when she died, lost control.
HULLINGER (voice-over): Many fat acceptance groups have rallied around Marlene, saying she was charged with child abuse simply because her daughter was obese. And that, they say, is discrimination.
FRANCES WHITE, PRESIDENT, NATIONAL ASSOCIATION TO ADVANCE FAT ACCEPTANCE: And I don't think that mother would be on trial if she didn't have a fat child.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HULLINGER: Joining us today, Judy Freespirit with the National Association to Advance Fat Acceptance. She's been attending the trial of Marlene Corrigan. And here in Atlanta, J. Tom Morgan, DeKalb County, Georgia district attorney. He specializes in child abuse cases. He is co-author of "A Nation Shamed, Fatal Child Abuse and Neglect in the United States."
J. Tom, would Marlene be charged with this crime if her daughter were not obese?
J. TOM MORGAN, CHILD ABUSE PROSECUTOR: Yes, she would, Jeff. This is no different than if the mother had locked the child up saying the child was anorexic, and failed to provide the child food, failed to provide the child with medical care, failed to provide the child with nourishment.
Our law says that not only are we morally obligated, we are legally obligated to provide our children with an education, to provide our children with medical treatment, and to provide our children with healthy nourishment until they're 17 years old.
HULLINGER: You think this is a simple case of child abuse and nothing more than that?
MORGAN: Yes. Under Georgia law, under California law, this is a case of child abuse. As the prosecutor said, this has nothing to do with obesity. It has to do with caring and providing for the child as our law demands.
HULLINGER: Judy Freespirit, do you believe that? Do you buy into the concept that obesity is at the root of all of this in terms of the charges? Is that your contention today even after you've seen all of the evidence?
JUDY FREESPIRIT, FAT ACCEPTANCE ACTIVIST: After I've seen all the evidence, I'm more convinced of that than ever, that this is an issue of fear of fat, and people's rage about fat, and people's fear of being fat, and all of those things, that the case of Marlene Corrigan should never have been tried, that she is not a neglectful mother.
I wasn't sure when I started watching that court to... I had no idea whether she was or wasn't guilty. Having been through the trial, been at all of the trial, I know that she was not guilty of anything.
HULLINGER: Is it not the responsibility, though, of the mother to step in there and say, "Look, this is a child who no longer is going to school. This is a child who hasn't seen a doctor in many years. This is a child who simply can't even get through the apartment." Isn't it a responsibility of that mother to do more than what she did?
FREESPIRIT: The problem is that the mother did everything that she was capable of doing. The school failed her, the medical people failed her. Everyone failed her. She tried to get her into school. She tried to get her medical care. She didn't get it.
HULLINGER: Let's take a caller right now. Christy from Tennessee, go ahead. You're question now.
CHRISTY: Well, I have two points. First of all, I have never once heard of anyone being prosecuted for their child being anorexic. And secondly, at what point does a child become responsibility for her own actions? At what point does she become responsible for not going to school, for not seeing a doctor? The mother could do whatever she can do to try and get here there, but at what point does the child become responsible for saying no and not going?
HULLINGER: J. Tom Morgan, go ahead, take that.
MORGAN: Seventeen. That's when a child is emancipated, and then we, as parents, are no longer responsible for our children's actions. And Jeff, parents are not prosecuted because a child's anorexic. A parent will be prosecuted for not providing the medical treatment that an anorexic child would need, just as a child with leukemia or just as a child with down syndrome. We are responsible for providing the care that our children need, medical care, education, and nourishment. That's what the law requires.
HULLINGER: What about neglect? Does it equal abuse?
MORGAN: Yes, neglect is a form of abuse. To not provide a child with care is the same thing as hurting a child. This child is dead, and the child is dead because the mother did not take those actions necessary to keep that child alive.
HULLINGER: Jenny from Indiana, a question for both of our panelists.
JENNY: There's a couple of points I'd like to make. First of all, I am the mother of six children, and I would do anything to try to get help for my children, especially if I felt like they had an addictive behavior type of problem, which maybe this child did have, wanting to eat or whatever her issues were. But I also wanted to know what the mother was formally charged with. I mean, obviously, it was a neglect case and that's the issue here, but what was she formally charged with?
HULLINGER: J. Tom, go ahead. Why don't you take that as well. Judy, we'll let you step in a moment.
MORGAN: Jeff, she was charged under the California child abuse statute, which, in this particular case, is a six year minimum... or excuse me, six year maximum sentence. Child abuse is defined as failure to provide a child with necessary nourishment or medical treatment or an education. It's similar to the Georgia statute.
HULLINGER: Judy, as you sat and watched this trial, why have you come to the conclusion that obesity is the central issue of this?
FREESPIRIT: Because the mother was not neglectful of this child. The child was definitely fat. She definitely had the bed sores that they claim she had. The problem was that the mother was never able to get any help from the medical establishment.
She took the child to the doctor 90 times between the age of birth and eight. All that she ever got was low calorie diets and told to exercise her. She never got any kind of medical help. After you've gone 90 times to the doctor and gotten no help, why go again?
The problem is that we assume that there was something there for her. There may have been, but she wasn't getting it where she was going, and she was a member of an HMO.
HULLINGER: Is felony abuse too much in this case? Should this be a misdemeanor?
FREESPIRIT: Oh, absolutely.
MORGAN: Here it would be a misdemeanor, Jeff. For us to have a felony in Georgia, you have to do it with malice. You have to intentionally want your child to be deprived of these things. So that's really a jury question, and this case is going to be judge's question because the defense attorney decided that a jury would find his client guilty, and decided to throw his client at the mercy of the court.
HULLINGER: What about a strategy like that? Is that guilt conceived?
MORGAN: Well, that's tough. I think what he did was look around audiences and finding out that most people would find her guilty and decided, you know, risk it with a judge.
My understanding is that the pictures of this young girl were so horrific that a jury would look at them and say this mother is responsible. She had over a hundred bed sores on her when she was found dead.
FREESPIRIT: I'd like to speak to that, if I may.
HULLINGER: Go ahead, Judy.
FREESPIRIT: Christina was 13 years old. She was a very private child. We don't know whether she had any major kind of genetic disorder because nothing was saved by the coroner. So we don't know why she was as fat as she was. She did have the bed sores. However, she didn't complain about them. There was no testimony of anyone that said that the mother knew about this.
The mother claims not to know, and I do believe her, having listened to her for all this time. She did have some sores on her legs. The mother tried treating them with an ointment. But Christina did not complain about excessive pain. Now that kind of bed sore is extremely painful.
There's a possibility, which the prosecution did not agree with, but which the defense brought up that she might have a certain genetic condition called Prader-Willi, and that one of the symptoms of that condition is that the person has an extremely high tolerance for pain.
HULLINGER: Why did they not test this child for that?
FREESPIRIT: Well, that's a very good question. That's exactly what I'm here about. They didn't test her because she was fat. The coroner's office hired a pathologist to do the autopsy. The pathologist looked at the body, said, "Oh, my God, this child is 680 pounds. She must have died of heart failure due to her obesity," and never did anything more. He did a 10-minute visual observation of the body. He took no tissue. He sent nothing out to be... And he saved nothing. So that we... If he had saved anything, we could have done genetic testing, we could have found out if perhaps she had some kind of a genetic condition. But the prejudice, the bias on the part of the coroner was such that it was no question in his mind she died of obesity because she was fat.
HULLINGER: Judy Freespirit, thank you. At age 8, Christina weighed more than 200 pounds. Did she get the right medical advice? We'll talk to a doctor next, and we'll ask: Who's to blame?
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
ANNOUNCER (voice-over): By the time she was eight, Christina Corrigan weighed 237 pounds. That's more than four times the normal weight for a child her age.
HULLINGER: Welcome back, everyone. I'm Jeff Hullinger. Joining us now by phone is Dr. Arthur Frank. He is the director of George Washington University's obesity management program. Doctor, thank you for being with us today.
DR. ARTHUR FRANK, GEORGE WASHINGTON UNIVERSITY: It's nice to be here.
HULLINGER: Would you explain Prader-Willi disease for us? We just heard Judy Freespirit bring it up. I think there's some confusion about it.
FRANK: Well, there's a lot of confusion about it. This is a very rare genetic disease, congenital disease in which children typically really have an uncontrolled impulse to eat. It's a set of very, very strong signals to consume food with apparently no mechanism, no signaling system and no power to stop eating. It's a very intense drive to eat, and it's exceedingly difficult for the individual patient to control this. And as a result, it's exceedingly difficult for their family to control it as well. There are very few people with this disease, and it's very few resources to help people manage the disease.
Now I don't know if this child at Prader-Willi's syndrome. It certainly is a possibility, but there are a whole bunch of other things go along with it, and we have to find out.
HULLINGER: Doctor, defense lawyers cited the case that Christina had gone to the doctor 90 times, and the only advice that she had gotten, or the only recommendation was to stop eating and to exercise. Do you think medical care was negligent in this case?
FRANK: The reality is that it's less of a medical problem than it is a problem of the whole social system. The medical care system doesn't deal well and can't deal well, particularly well with obesity because it's not much that the physician really can do to be helpful in this particular case. Even if the doctor were truly sincere and well-meaning, there's very few resources around to help this child and this family. Just to say that it's all the responsibility of the physician is being unrealistic, but it's all the responsibility of the family. And the family doesn't have the resources to manage this very complicated disease. And so we're all left with the realization that we are... culturally, our civilization, our society doesn't have the wherewithal to help these folks.
HULLINGER: Let's take a phone call right now. Roseanne in New York, your son has Prader-Willi.
ROSEANNE: Yes.
HULLINGER: Could you tell us a little bit about that disease and how it has impacted him and the sorts of things that he must deal with on a day-to-day basis with the affliction?
ROSEANNE: OK. There are many aspects to it, but the number one being life-threatening is his obsession with food. It's a part of the brain that has just... He doesn't get the signal of being full. He just always has an urge to eat. And my part being the parent, my responsibility is to provide him that basic need of restricting him from food. We have to lock the refrigerator. He does have 24-hour supervision from food in order for him to have a normal life span.
HULLINGER: J. Tom Morgan, child abuse prosecutor, are you surprised that they did not check for this syndrome?
MORGAN: No, Jeff. Prader-Willi is extremely rare. I don't think there's a coroner in the country that would have checked it. This is only something that came up when the defense attorney found out his client was charged with child abuse. There were a lot of symptoms that this child did not have that are common with Prader- Willi, but that child would not have been checked in any M.D.'s office that I can imagine in this country for Prader-Willi.
ROSEANNE: The weight gain should have sent up red flags immediately to check for that. And the characteristics of the child just by looking, by the pictures, are exactly what is needed to see Prader-Willi syndrome.
FREESPIRIT: I would also like to say that there was an expert witness on the stand all morning yesterday, Dr. Heinlein (ph) from Indiana University, who is a Prader-Willi expert. And he did say that having looked at all the medical records and having talked with the mother and gotten a medical history from the mother, that he thought she had at least Prader-Willi-like symptoms, that there was a real possibility.
The child weighed 287 pounds, I believe, at the age of eight, or 247 at the age of eight. She was going to Kaiser-Permanente, which is an HMO. There is a pediatric endocrinologist on staff. The doctor, the pediatrician did not refer her for any further testing beyond just a very basic thyroid test. They kept saying there was nothing wrong with her, and they didn't try to find out. Now they might not have found out that she had Prader-Willi, but they didn't even try to find out if there was any other basis than her eating and not doing enough exercise.
HULLINGER: OK, J. Tom Morgan, let's say this child had Prader- Willi. Would it have made any difference, and would the mother have still been negligent?
MORGAN: You took the words right out of my mouth, Jeff. It doesn't make any difference. If this child has a disease, as a parent, as the parent in New York said, "It is my responsibility as a parent to restrict the food from that child so the child's life is not threatened." And here, no pun intended, but she just kept feeding this child and kept feeding this disease, if there ever was such a disease.
Second point is, this is a genetic disease. DNA testing of the mother might have proven or disproven it, but the defense never offered it.
HULLINGER: Let's take a question from our audience. Bonnie from Georgia, go ahead. Your question.
BONNIE: Thank you. As the mother of five daughters and a grandmother of 14, the thing I can't comprehend is having a child in my care, and that child having 100 bed sores and I don't know it. That is completely beyond my comprehension.
HULLINGER: Thank you, Bonnie. We appreciate it. Dr. Arthur Frank, I want to ask you the question. We talked about the physiological problems of being overweight for a child, but what about the psychological problems, the abuse at school? Christina stopped going to school, and clearly, it was difficult for her to walk up the steps to class. But at the same time, kids can be very cruel. And she was the object of a lot of contempt and a lot of very mean words.
FRANK: I think that there are a lot of parts of the system that seemed to have failed here. Obviously, the medical care system did not recognize this exceedingly rare disease if, in fact, it was part of the problem. It's a very rare disease. And even people who deal with obesity frequently don't see it very often. So that's number one.
Number two, the school system didn't deal with it well.
Number three, the social service system didn't deal with it well.
And number four, particularly the mother didn't deal with it well. She seemed just to have given up on the whole process. And in the process of giving up on it all, she just sort of walked away from it and then became a facilitator of the whole deteriorating process.
HULLINGER: J. Tom Morgan... Go ahead, Judy.
FREESPIRIT: There are a whole number of factors that were going on here that we haven't even begun to talk about with this mother's life. Marlene Corrigan worked full-time. Is a mother of two. Has a son who's about 22 at this point. Full support not only for her family as a single mother but had two dying parents for the year and a half prior to the death of her daughter. Her father died about 11 months prior to Christina. She was the sole care of these two elderly and very ill patients. Her father died of cancer, and her mother died of Alzheimer's one month after Christina died.
This woman was overstressed. She was working full-time. She was doing more than anybody could humanly be asked to do, and she did the best she could under the circumstances. That's the issue.
HULLINGER: J. Tom Morgan, we see the court systems are so full of single mothers, or single parents that are overwhelmed by life circumstances. Still, that's no defense for neglect, is it?
MORGAN: No. We should never give up. And there are a lot of single parents who are wonderful parents who provide the necessary care for their children.
HULLINGER: Dr. Frank, thank you very much. We appreciate your time. Thanks for being with us today.
FRANK: Thank you.
HULLINGER: This case could open a legal can of worms. We'll talk more about that. If Marlene is an abusive parent, what about the parents of drug users and alcoholics? We'll get into that next. Stay with us. We'll continue.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
ANNOUNCER (voice-over): Obesity contributes to 300,000 deaths each year.
HULLINGER: Welcome back. I'm Jeff Hullinger. Joining us now are Russell Williams, an activism vice president with the International Size Acceptance Association. He's been active in what he calls the fat people's civil rights movement for more than 20 years. Also, Walter Olson, author of "The Excuse Factory" and contributing editor at Reason magazine.
And let's begin with you, Mr. Olson. What if your child is an alcoholic or takes drugs? Should the parent be responsible, in your estimation?
WALTER OLSON, AUTHOR, "THE EXCUSE FACTORY": The law we've got on child abuse asks a different question. Not: Are they responsible, but did they do the minimum you would expect any reasonable person to do to try to get help. That doesn't mean they're going to succeed in saving the child, as they may lose the child, and they will not be guilty of anything legally. But if they sat back and ignored all the signs for long enough, then it might be illegal.
HULLINGER: Russell Williams, your thoughts on that.
RUSSELL WILLIAMS, INTERNATIONAL SIZE ACCEPTANCE ASSOCIATION: I tend to agree with Dr. Frank, that all kinds of things failed in the situation. The school should have been more active. The medical profession should have been more active. The mother was placed in a horrible choice. It is perhaps correct that with her parents and her child both in serious situations, she should have said, "I can't deal with all of them. My parents will have to die on their own, and I will take care of my daughter." That's a horrible thing to ask a person to do.
HULLINGER: Judy Freespirit, agree or disagree with what you've heard so far?
FREESPIRIT: So far, I agree with what Russell said. I don't think that this mother was responsible any more than... You know, you'd have to put everybody in jail. All of us have some responsibility in this, and I don't think the mother should be held accountable for it. She did do the best she could under the circumstances.
You know, we can all second guess. It's really easy to sit back and second guess what somebody would have done. Think of yourself in that kind of a situation.
HULLINGER: J. Tom Morgan, where does the law stand on this?
MORGAN: Ultimately, the parent is responsible and solely responsible. And we're responsible for our children. We're not responsible for our parents. The school system is... Obviously, this child was truant. I don't know why the school system did not find out about this child.
But Jeff, your point about drug addicts. Unfortunately, there are a lot of 12-year-old drug addicts in our country. And as parents, we're obligated to provide the reasonable care necessary so these children are not addicted. And if you analogize it to this case, this mother was not only providing care, she was providing food for this child. This child gained 400 pounds under her care and under her care alone.
HULLINGER: Harvey from New York, a question, a comment?
HARVEY: Given that the mother accept some responsibility for whatever, if she was capable or not, doesn't the state of California, the locality... They knew the conditions. I mean, she wasn't going to school. She had seen doctors. Why didn't... Don't they have a responsibility in some way in this issue?
FREESPIRIT: I'd like to speak to that.
HULLINGER: Go ahead, Judy.
FREESPIRIT: This child has really fallen through the cracks on every level. When she finished elementary school and was about to go to junior high school, she was really concerned about meeting a whole bunch of new kids. She had been, you know, badly treated a lot as a child, as you can imagine. Children can be very cruel.
The school that she was to go to was seven blocks up a very steep hill, and then there were many, many stairs, I don't know how many. Something like 30 steps that one had to go up in order to get into the school.
Marlene tried to get her some accommodation to try to get her a bus to take her up to school. The school said that they wouldn't do anything for her.
She then tried to get home teaching for her. They would not give her any home teaching. She then offered to be a home teacher for her. They said she wasn't qualified. They left her with very little options. And this kind of thing happened through every other kind of agency that she went to. It happened with the schools, it happened with the medical system. Everywhere she turned, she got no help. And so I cannot see how she can be held completely responsible for this. Yeah, maybe she could have done something differently. She admits that she might have done something differently had she known the outcome, but when you're in that kind of situation, you cannot possibly imagine what it would be like to be...
OLSON: But let's hold on for a moment. If I understand the prosecution's case correctly, this was a parent who did not get a doctor to visit her daughter for a long, long time before the end. And because her parents were ill, it wasn't as if she wasn't seeing a lot of doctors and visiting a lot of hospitals. These are the reasons why I think... I agree, the prosecution has gone completely overboard on child neglect and abuse. They prosecute too many cases that should not be prosecuted. But I'm not too surprised they prosecuted this one when I hear things like that, no doctor visits.
HULLINGER: Let's take a telephone call if we can right now. From Massachusetts, Valerie, go ahead.
VALERIE: Hi, yes. I'm going to comment from both sides of the story here. I was an obese child. My first diet was when I was in the third grade. And as a mother, come hell or high water, if my child were in that condition, something would have been done. This has nothing to do with fat acceptance. This has nothing to do with neglect on any other part than that parent. Come hell or high water, if that were my child, she would have been helped.
HULLINGER: We'll get some reaction to that call as we continue. Stay with us. I'm Jeff Hullinger. This is TALKBACK LIVE. We'll come right back. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
HULLINGER: Welcome back to TALKBACK LIVE, everyone. I'm Jeff Hullinger at the CNN Center in Atlanta. We're talking about the death of a 680-pound teenager whose mother is on trial for child abuse.
Our guests are Judy Freespirit with the National Association to Advance Fat Acceptance; Russell Williams with the International Size Acceptance Association; Walter Olson, author of "The Excuse Factory"; and here in Atlanta, DeKalb, Georgia district attorney J. Tom Morgan.
Valerie from Massachusetts, if you would continue on your thoughts before we went away to the break. Would you make your comments again very quickly, please.
VALERIE: Just basically that I was a fat child. I've fought obesity my entire life. I'm 39 years old. I'm also a mother of two. Regardless of whether or not this child had Prader-Willi syndrome, as they have been talking about, the bottom line is is that there was severe neglect in this situation. That child would not have been in that situation if it had been my child or the child of many parents that I know. She needed help. I don't care how much stress this mother was under. Help is a phone call away.
HULLINGER: Valerie, thank you. Julia from London, your comments as a follow up to this.
JULIA: Well, it's true that the mother needed help, but as an abused child myself, I know from firsthand experience how shame can make someone build barriers around the truth. They'll build up all sorts of denial to stop themselves from seeking help when they know they have to get outside assistance. So I'd like to know what kind of assistance was offered in a proactive way to this woman who was obviously crying out for some kind of assistance. Maybe she had problems, too.
HULLINGER: J. Tom, how about social services?
MORGAN: There's no question social services dropped the ball here, though they're not criminally responsible. However, it is my understanding that a social worker went to the house and said, "There's nothing we can do. Your daughter is too obese," and decided there was not neglect here. There was a lot of proactive things that can and should have been done but were not done in this case. But, again, the mother is ultimately responsible.
FREESPIRIT: I'd be really interested in hearing what kinds of proactive things you think could have been done.
MORGAN: First of all, I think social services should have recognized the ill health this child was in and insisted that this child get medical attention or that this child was going to be put in protective custody. This is not unlike a lot of cases we see where parents intentionally deprive children of food, and these children have to be taken into protective custody. Then while they looked here and said, "Well, this child is big but so be it; there's nothing we can do about it," and they closed the case and walked out the door.
HULLINGER: Russell Williams, what do you think should be done?
WILLIAMS: I wanted to take exception to the statement that help is a phone call away. Particular example. I was trying to get an armless chair into a medical laboratory. Help was five or six sit- ins, a letter to the editor, a threat to call the newspapers in before the thing was accomplished. And not everybody has the "sticktuitiveness" to push that hard. The mother did the reasonable things. The complaint is she didn't do the unreasonable things to go to the school system and say, "My daughter needs this treatment. I'm sitting here. And you can arrest me or you can work with my daughter," things like that.
OLSON: Did she show up at a hospital with the girl? Did she ever take her into a hospital and say, "Please, she needs a check up at least once a year"?
WILLIAMS: This I do not know. I wish I had a chance to talk with Judy a little bit...
OLSON: Hospitals are not that hard to get into. There's a lot of weak people show up at hospitals. That's why they make them easy to get into.
FREESPIRIT: Yes, she could have been seen at a hospital. She was seen many times at a hospital, and they didn't get any results. And I think they both really gave up, and for very good reasons, because they didn't ever get any help. They didn't believe there was... They no longer believed that there was any help to be gotten there.
OLSON: And when was the last time they got help?
FREESPIRIT: Five years prior to her death.
OLSON: So it wasn't worth trying. It wasn't worth even trying in the last five years?
WILLIAMS: It should have been tried. However, when you reach a certain amount of rejection, we cannot always say everybody else should have and would have kept forcing the system in spite of the system's resistance as hard as we might fight them.
HULLINGER: A question or a comment here in Atlanta from Phyllis from Wisconsin.
PHYLLIS: Yes. I wondered if she had a full-time job, who took care of her while the mother was working?
FREESPIRIT: I can speak to that. She was 13 years old. She took care of herself. She was not, as far as anybody knew, really ill. She wasn't in school because she couldn't get accommodations. She was supposed to be doing things like taking care of herself. She did spend her time reading. Her mother gave her assignments, even though they wouldn't allow her to officially home school her. She would write reports. She would read books. And she was quite capable of taking care of herself. She was sick...
The day that she died, she had asked her mother to stay home because she was sick with a cold. And she had respiratory problems anyway. She had trouble breathing at night particularly. And so her mother did stay home from work that day. And when she died, the mother was out for 20 minutes to the store trying to get... gone to get her something to drink.
HULLINGER: Isaac from Ohio, question or a comment?
ISAAC: Yes, I would like us to read the definition of neglect. Is that an implication that the mother did not know what to do, or she knew what to do, she did what she could, but that was not enough?
HULLINGER: J. Tom, go ahead.
MORGAN: Ignorance is not neglect. Neglect is intentionally depriving a child of nourishment, medical treatment, or an education.
WILLIAMS: Has there been any testimony as to whether or not the mother decided to help the child by putting her on a diet drug, which has since been withdrawn from the market after there were too many deaths?
FREESPIRIT: No. Fortunately for her, she didn't know that that existed, because she hadn't had medical treatment recently enough. I don't believe Phen-Fen was something that was out. And certainly, it wasn't being given to children, I don't believe.
OLSON: Why fortunately for her?
FREESPIRIT: Phen-Fen? Oh, because of so many people getting...
OLSON: You mean she might have developed a heart defect in five years. But she's dead now.
FREESPIRIT: But how could the mother have known that? How could anyone have known that. The doctors...
OLSON: I'm curious you say, "Fortunately for her she didn't know about it," though. Why is that fortunate?
FREESPIRIT: Wait a minute. The doctors were pushing the Phen- Fen, and they didn't know that it was doing this to people.
OLSON: Why is it fortunate that they didn't take the other roll of the dice? It couldn't have turned out worse, could it?
FREESPIRIT: That's true, it couldn't have turned out worse, but we don't know that it would have been any better either.
OLSON: Yeah, so let her be alive and have a heart valve defect.
FREESPIRIT: We don't know that she would have been alive.
HULLINGER: Go ahead, Russell, your turn.
FREESPIRIT: Phen-Fen would not necessarily have done anything to help her.
WILLIAMS: If she had gone to medical professionals, she might very well have been told to get weight loss surgery of some form. If she got the weight loss surgery, there is a pretty good... there is a chance she would have died of that. But had she died of the weight loss surgery, everybody would say, "Well, the mother is doing a wonderful job. She's trying to get good medical treatment for her."
HULLINGER: Hold it right there. We will continue. A case of abuse or neglect? We continue from the CNN Center. I'm Jeff Hullinger. We'll be right back.
ANNOUNCER (voice-over): Between 1976 and 1991, the number of people eating low fat and low calorie foods rose from 19 percent of the population to 76 percent. During that same time, the number of Americans considered obese increased 33 percent.
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ANNOUNCER (voice-over): Forty million adult Americans are more than 20 percent above their desired weight.
HULLINGER: Welcome back to the CNN Center, everyone. I'm Jeff Hullinger. Is it the last accepted prejudice against obese people? Well, that's what we're talking about this afternoon. We're also talking about the case of perhaps child abuse.
And we want to go right now to Helen in West Virginia. You are the mother of an overweight child. Can you talk a little bit about your experience?
HELEN: Yes, I can. You know, first, I must say people should not make comments about this issue until they have walked in my shoes down this road. The medical field has failed them and the rest have followed suit.
Discerning from the various media reports, I feel that Christina had a full-blown case of Prader-Willi syndrome, 'cause my child, my daughter is a Prader-Willi syndrome. She will eat raw meat, garbage, anything. We have to keep everything locked up. And diagnosis is essential at birth, not later. At birth. This condition requires professional counseling, monitoring, and guidance. And if, in fact, if Christina had been to a doctor prior to 1992, why wasn't she diagnosed as such? Christina certainly did fall through the cracks like one of your panelists has said. So who is to blame? Certainly not Christina's mother.
HULLINGER: Helen from West Virginia, thank you very much. Let's continue here in Atlanta. Drew from Chicago, your question.
DREW: The mother and the child sound so isolated. I wonder where friends or family or church, what kind of community did she have? It doesn't sound like she has any.
HULLINGER: Judy, you were in on the trial. Could you address that?
FREESPIRIT: You know, I saw this woman come to the trial almost every day by herself. She has one sister who lives in Alaska, one sister who lives in the same area that she does but who is not very present. I don't know what her background is in terms of church, but she does seem to be quite isolated. And I think that she did try to reach out to the various institutions that had to do with Christina, but I don't think that she had a whole lot of support other than that. She was way too busy trying to deal with these two very elderly, very ill parents, and this child who needed a lot of extra attention, and working full-time as a single mom. I just don't see where she would have found the time or energy. She was pretty much used up.
HULLINGER: Polly from Indiana, a question or a comment, please.
POLLY: Comment. We have been making excuses for this mother since the beginning of this program. She was overworked. She was under this. She was over something else. I've had children that were seriously ill. I've had a husband that's gone through serious illnesses. You do not give up. I was in a hospital once. The hospital people said "There's really nothing we can do for this particular family member of yours." Then I said, "You better think of something, 'cause I'm leaving, and that person is staying here until you figure it out." And I walked out the door. They figured something out.
HULLINGER: Walter Olson, are we hearing excuses today?
OLSON: Well, we've heard amazing excuses. And, you know, Isaac asked the question about what's the standard of abuse. One rule of thumb is if 99 percent of parents would have done better, then, you know, maybe you've got a parent who's really not making it. And in this case, again and again, you know, we haven't asked the questions like: How could she take care of herself if she was immobilized? Everyone who's been around the hospital knows you don't leave immobilized people without someone taking care of them.
And there was a lot of help available. You can't tell me that because someone's holding down her job, they can't lift up the phone on their lunch hour and begin calling doctors.
HULLINGER: Verne from Georgia, your thoughts.
VERNE: If this is somewhat controlled by genetics or a biological defect, number one, how can that be child abuse on the part of the mother? Also, from the medical profession, what has the medical profession done to help cure Prader-Willi syndrome or a biological defect that does not allow people to control their weight? And also, on the part of the coroner in this situation, why wouldn't a competent coroner have been suspicious of this disease and look for it during the autopsy?
HULLINGER: We'll get the answers to your questions as we continue live from the CNN Center in Atlanta. We continue. Stay with us.
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HULLINGER: Back again, everyone. I'm Jeff Hullinger. Fat prejudice or child abuse? That's the discussion that we have had all day on TALKBACK LIVE. From Marilyn: "Doctors, family members, and school officials share in the neglect. Mom is not singularly responsible and should not be on trial as such."
When we went to break, we were hearing from Verne from Georgia. Verne, why don't you continue with your question and your comment. Let's get some reaction to it.
VERNE: Well, my comments were that basically, our physical size is largely controlled by genetics, and to some degree, maybe biological defects. I mean, look around the room here at the people that are sitting in here. And I live on Wendy's and McDonald's and Burger King, and I don't weigh 650 pounds.
Also, in the medical profession, what has the medical profession done for people that have this Prader-Willi syndrome or a defect in their biological genetics that causes them not to be able to control their physical weight?
And my third question was also then in the coroner's autopsy, with a person that weighs 650 pounds, wouldn't the coroner, a competent coroner be a little more suspicious of some other cause of death than just heart failure?
HULLINGER: J. Tom, why don't you address that last question?
MORGAN: First off, there's a lot of competent coroners who would not have looked for Prader-Willi. It is a very, very rare syndrome among children. Also, the obesity is not the crime. The crime is failing to provide medical attention for the obesity. Let's done forget, ladies and gentlemen, this child at 12 years old was 680 pounds. The authorities found her wrapped in a bed sheet nude, surrounded by fast food wrappers with feces four months old in the folds of her flesh and a hundred bed sores. That's why this woman is on trial.
HULLINGER: Go ahead, Judy, we are running out of time. Be very quick.
FREESPIRIT: I have to speak. There was nothing four months old proven anywhere. That's purely fallacious. The child was in a bed sheet because she had a very bad cold. She wasn't feeling well. She was laying at home on her living room floor in a sheet because she wasn't feeling good. That's why she was there like that. I don't know about the fast food containers, but so what?
HULLINGER: Russell, I've got to run. I've got to take it. We could talk about this for the next couple of hours. Maybe we'll do that some time.
FREESPIRIT: I hope so.
HULLINGER: Thanks to all of our guests for joining us. And to you, too, at home. Thank you for watching. We'll see you tomorrow.
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